In an attempt to focus more on the Nature of the Church, I
quote our trustworthy friend Prof Erickson.
“The distinction between the visible and invisible church, a
distinction that some would disallow, is not the same as the distinction between
the local and the universal church. Rather, what we are dealing with here is
the question of the extent to which the true church is to be identified with
the present earthly institution. Is it possible, on the one hand, that persons within
the visible church are not true believers, not actually part of the body of
Christ? And conversely, can there be membership in Christ’s body apart from
affiliation with some segment of the visible church, some local collection of believers?”
This is quite a profound statement. Are we to believe that
there are some people in our churches, the congregation of ‘saints’ that are
actually doing the works of what would be seen as Christian but not being true
Christians or true believers? I know this would probably open a can of worms on
the dynamics of Salvation and the theories around it, but just for argument sake,
what if it was possible? That some could be going through the rigmaroles of Church
life and yet not be true believes.
And what about the converse? What if there are some who are
part of the Ecclesia but not part of the Church? We have studied about
Christian Contextualization. The so called Hindu-Christians. Or the Buddhist-Christians.
But what about people who are from a majority faith country who secretly
worship Jesus but have to outwardly portray their practice of the dominant
faith? Would they be part of the Ecclesia on the day of reckoning?
Igster, referring to your questions "Is it possible, on the one hand, that persons within the visible church are not true believers, not actually part of the body of Christ? And conversely, can there be membership in Christ’s body apart from affiliation with some segment of the visible church, some local collection of believers?"
ReplyDeleteWell, there are possibililities in both. In the early church, there had already been many false teachers around in the church and Paul gave Timothy and Titus the charge to deal with them urgently. If they were 'false' teachers, then they are not believers of the true Gospel, even though they were worshiping in the same church. Jesus also speaks about wolves in sheep's clothings in Matt 7:15. How about the sheep and the goats in Jesus' parable? in Matt 25:31-46. There are many interpretations of the parable but one most prevalent is the ecclesiastical/restrictive approach referring to judgment of Christians.
As to the next question, it is possible for underground believers or secret believers to not being part of the visible church with no affiliation whatsoever with any church and they may be scattered because of the persecutions in their nations or environment. Yet, they are true Christians, true believers of Christ.
As for some other cases, we can have many church-goers, who practice all the religiosity of the Christian 'religion' yet do not have personal relationship with Christ. Then, they are not true believers.
You brought up a very interesting question especially on the believers in countries where they have to be underground or even "undercover" Christians. I think in the long term, they really can't remain undercover as such, that is outwardly pretending practice their former religion but inwardly a Christians. Sooner or later genuine disciples of Jesus would have to openly confess the Jesus as Lord (cf. Mat 10:32, Mark 8:38, Luk 12:8, Jn 12:42-43) at the risk of persecution or else their faith in Christ is really questionable.
ReplyDeleteThat brings us to another aspect of the Church, that is fellowship of believers as body of Christ. In the NT, there is no such thing as "island believer" because they were always be found in the assembly. NT believers are always be identified as disciples of Jesus in togetherness. That's the reason why RC & Eastern Orthodox goes too far to assert that there's no salvation outside the Church. Not that they are right but it actually stem from the idea that Christians always be identified as the body of Christ/member of the Church.
As for Hindu or Buddist-Christians and the like, I think this category is incoherent with Scripture. If someone truly believed in Christ, one would have to abandon the false gods and their association with it or that person is no Christian at all. At the very least, one would have to believe that Jesus is the ONLY way, truth and life. To remain attached to former religion is simply syncretism which the God of the Bible abhor as in the history of Israel, where although they still worship Yahweh as their "national" God, but they also incorporated the worship of Baal and others into their religious practices.
Yes Iggy,
ReplyDeleteI think we were in the same 'Local Church and Missions' class where we studied about Christian Contextualization.From the missiological perspective there definitely can be 'membership in Christ’s body apart from affiliation with some segment of the visible church, i.e. some local collection of believers. The issue of MissionFrontiers that covered the 'Jesus Movements' happening all over the world testifies to this. Not sure if you read the issue Terry, but the Hindu or Buddhist follower of Jesus may not be as incoherent with Scripture as we would make it out to be.
Please read the full article here:
http://www.missionfrontiers.org/issue/article/jesus-movements
Some interesting excerpts:
"It was clear that these men know Jesus in all his fullness. The testimony of their lives is not one of compromise. It is not their objective to avoid persecution. The way they live out their faith is not an easier, less authentic way, as some people might accuse. Rather, their path of following Jesus is a harder one and a higher one. By remaining within Islam, they are not seeking acceptance for themselves. They seek to express to their people that Jesus accepts them right where they are, and that they can faithfully follow him within their community and their family of birth."
That's just the opening article - the whole issue is eye opening to say the least.
What does glorfiy God in the end?
ReplyDeleteI just shared in FB this morning: Let your gentleness be evident to all, the Lord is near (Phil 4:5)
While being in Hinduism and Buddhism, or Islam, but following Jesus, especially when this is the national religion, it's really a hard road for them.
Terry is right: we have to abandon all idols, in fact, flee from it! This echoed so many times in all Paul's letter. Because it strayed people away from worship Him.
People can see right through us whether we are God's product: the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Unless we start to reflect God's light to others, then what's the point of being called a believer?
But I like umeng's last paragraph: "They seek to express to their people that Jesus accepts them right where they are and that they can faithfully follow him within their community and their family of birth."
There must be a reformation, like what Josiah has done: causing the country to repent and follow God. So many examples in OT; Rahab, Ruth, Esther,Tamar; (eh, girl power?)they are foreigners and used to worships idols, but because God saw their willingness to follow Him, grafted them into His plan of salvation. I remembered what Ps Wendy said in OT class: they stopped the curse that flow in.
Some day, we will see that day. If you live among non-Christians, it's good way to start. They don't want our companionship, they want our faith.
Thank you all for your such in depth and detail comments. It really is a highly debatable issue. But at the end of the day, the idea of Salvation and being Justified before God still stands true to anyone who confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart. But would the Sanctification process be an area that we would be hindered in if we were to continually maintain in the lifestyle of a previous religion (maybe due to the loss of life or extradition from the family)?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't a 15 year old Muslim girl want to still live with her family and be their daughter even after the has come to know Christ?
I agree with Eva that it is not a new question and it is entirely possible to have some who are part of the visible church and but not the invisible church.
ReplyDeletei believe that when we stand before God on judgement day, there will be people standing there (or NOT standing there) who will shock us. God sees the heart of man, unlike any man ever can.
Who then is a true believer? I've heard of the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing" use to figuratively describe the insincere believer. However, is this a fair judgement for those who carry out the rigmaroles of Christian living but yet find God to be distant in their daily living? There is this possibility that a person will stay genuinely true to the cause of Christ if Christ can be truly evident in his/her life. This is a difficult issue because many a times a fear of God is absent because people just don't feel that there is a God that hears them or is able to deliver them form their circumstances. There is a likelihood that there could be believers in general who have a small view of God and don't see Him as important as the God who they worship on Sunday. There is then the picture of an institutionalized God and one who freely roams the earth in the form of His spirit. There have been cries many times from the pulpit (like in the church I go to) for believers to do away with pretensions and take God seriously during the other six days of the week. How many will take such cries seriously? I can't tell. Do they form part of the invisible church. One thing that is evident is that church activities do help a lot in getting people to be in God's presence. These activities don't guarantee however an immediate change in the attitudes of the believers towards God but they do help. Some will get serious with God, others won't, so what can we say. Are they wolf in sheep's clothing? Of course, those who practice double standards and live in the flesh might be termed as "wolves" but to me this is not a fair comment on them. The willingness of such believers to be found in the church could perhaps be the starting point or an entry point of the Holy Spirit into their lives to change them and reform them and bring about in them a repentance form their old ways. This is possible. Yes, there won't always be "true" believers but this is mainly on how sincerely serious they are to walk in His ways. There is hope even for those who are found in the visible church but back out from flourishing as the invisible church. Many factors like you've mentioned could lead to this, e.g. cultural restraints and so forth. Yet if they hold steadfast to the Word, they become people who carry a powerful testimony of God's grace and plan for their lives.
ReplyDelete"But at the end of the day, the idea of Salvation and being Justified before God still stands true to anyone who confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart. But would the Sanctification process be an area that we would be hindered in if we were to continually maintain in the lifestyle of a previous religion (maybe due to the loss of life or extradition from the family)?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't a 15 year old Muslim girl want to still live with her family and be their daughter even after the has come to know Christ?"
Hey Iggy,
With regards to ur train of thought here.. I empathize with those who have to endure persecutions of crazy levels when they come to know Christ.. We’ve all heard of stories where ppl get saved and their family totally kicks them out of the house, or the government comes down on them, or their extended family tries in various ways to convince them to drop this whole Christianity thing..
And it’s sad and it hurts, well, to me, my heart goes out to them, and much as I wish things could be so much more simpler like, maybe most of us here in less restrictive conditions when we accepted Christ.. But sometimes, circumstances are such that it causes more pain.. And as much as I would wish the best for people who come to Christ, the Bible does say that persecution, sufferings, trials come for us that would share in His future glory..
So for some to accept Christ and not be upfront about it, or, to declare/share their faith, I am not sure that would be the best course of action for someone who professes to be a disciple of Christ.. If the person still maintains the lifestyle and practices of their previous beliefs, then, there’s no stand being made, and everything’s all kept secret, the light has nowhere to shine when it’s hidden..
When we go through hardships and trials, that’s where we get built.. Which is what helps us develop endurance, and endurance strength of character, and character strengthens our hope in salvation..